Sometime reasonable wins...

[maygra]

If you have not tripped over heatherly's essay elsewhere, I encourage you to read it.

You know, if that's the sort of thing you like to read.

I say this in full admission of fact that I disagree, or rather, approach differently a couple of points in the second half of her essay -- primarily from a ideological and practical POV as opposed to disagreeing with her en toto of a writer's responsibility. I'm pretty sure I'll have additional thoughts on that in a bit, if I can get my thoughts organized in such a way as to present them as less contention than perspective.

Comments

[wrenlet.livejournal.com]

I think my main quibble is the assertion that incest as a plotpoint of fiction marks fandom as being outside the mainstream, like there is no published fiction on this topic. I hate to always be the one in the audience screeching "Flowers in the Attic!" but seriously, this was well-travelled ground long before the Eppes brothers or the Winchesters hit our screens. (And then there's anime, which is a whole topic unto itself.)

I just... we didn't make this up, not to be "edgy" or for any other reason. The trope was already out there, some of us are just choosing to run with it within the scope of fanfic.

*sigh* Kneejerk reactionism off. It's a very good essay, laying out good information on difficult topics and, incidentally, put a name to something I didn't have a name for before. *wince*

[amalthia]

The thing is I already feel like I post my fics responsibly because I add warnings, what more do people want???

I really do feel it's the parent's responsibility to take that keyboard and mouse with them when they leave for work so the kids can't play on the computer without them there to supervise.

most of the topics she mentioned I'd read stories that covered those issues from the school public library and the city public library. Fan Fiction isn't the first writing group to cover child abuse/incest/underage sex territory, I think it's just the first one that added warnings to the stories so people could pick and choose what they want to read.

Trust me, when I first read Flowers in the Attic at 15 I had no clue there was going to be incest/rape. When I read Stephen King's It at age 11 I also had no clue there would be a sex scene with 11 year olds in it and the list can easily go on.

hmmm maybe I should have posted this in my LJ.

[ratcreature]

I didn't really understand what the point of the post was. Maybe because it was so cautiously phrased. I mean, the post said that she had no problem with erotic fantasies, but then it gave the impression as if the only "responsible" way to write certain topics was the "take them serious as RL issues and do research" approach, it seemed?

I'm not into incest fic, so I'm unsure about fictional tropes there, but the same kind of argument exists with research for rapefic. Which, sure, is a good idea if anyone wants to write fanfic about rape as trauma realistically, but not so much if the point is to write a rape fantasy played out by characters. I mean, for example, I like rapefic of the kind where essentially the rape is fetishized, as porn, but the other kind of rapefic where the rape functions mainly as trauma and is dealt more or less realistically doesn't work as porn for me even if the descriptions are explicit. If it is heavy on the hurt it can work for me for my character hurt/torture kink, but that isn't really a "porn kink" but a "plot kink" for me. Along the same lines most porn slavefic wouldn't really be improved by researching human trafficking and its psychological impact on the victims, and I really don't see why anyone should do research into that to write write their "they get kidnapped, enslaved and humiliated by the bad guys" epic, or risk to be accused to make lightof human slavery.

[adonnchaid.livejournal.com]

Robert Heinlein wrote incest in at least one of his novels (brother/sister). As others have said, fandom isn't the first place these ... uncomfortable ... themes have been used. And it won't be the last.

As far as "responsible" writing goes, I'm not sure it's up to the writer to warn or research or include the impact on victims. I know Heinlein's book didn't have an incest warning on the back cover.

In a way, this is just another version of the "condoms, yes or no, are we being responsible?" discussion. All the choices we make in writing our stories have the potential for both positive or negative impact on a reader, and there comes a point where it's up to the reader to be responsible for their own choices.

[trinity_clare]

What's interesting to me is actually something that stems from her post, which cautions fanfic writers to keep in mind the difference between fantasy and reality. When I entered SPN fandom, I was wary of incest fic, and then when I did start reading it, I couldn't read fluff or schmoop or established relationship or anything but angst, really. And since I'm not a huge fan of the angst genre, I did slowly branch out (within the Sam/Dean pairing). And now all it takes is a little suspension of disbelief and a well-written story and I'll read most anything. So when I go back and look at my reading material with an observer's eye, it might seem...off. And while that wasn't what heatherly was warning against directly, it seems like part of it.

[lage-nom-ai.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much for pointing this out.

[kadymae.livejournal.com]

An interesting essay.

What I got out of it is that part of the problem as it were is that a certain portion of writers don't seem to feel that topics such as incest/underage/non-con are problimatic topics and that we can't just say "it's fanfic, SFW?" that doesn't let you off the hook. The topic/theme is still problimatic/thorny and you as the writer need to be cognizant of the fact and own up to it ... in some fashion.

And I say this as somebody whose current primary fandom is all about teenagers getting it on, and where the 17 year old kid sleeping with the 30 MILF next door is canon. (And holy shit were there some HOT fics written about that. Ones that totally got into why she gave in ... even though she knew it was wrong.)

[drlense.livejournal.com]

I've been sort of hesitant to post, but I think part of the problem with the reception of this essay is that there's some 'talking across fandoms', which can really confuse things.

Let me try and explain this, although I already feel like it's going to come out wrong. I see her essay as aimed at a certain subset of fandom that really doesn't think of these things- and unfortunately I think a lot of people to whom she ISN'T speaking are thinking that she's talking about them- and sort of freaking out about being called on the carpet for something that they believe they're already doing.

I also got the impression that she's talking about Harry Potter fandom more than she's discussing Supernatural- although I freely admit I could be wrong. As much as I think there are issues that cut across all of fandom, I think the way those issues ferment (maybe?) is different depending on the source material. Incest fics in SPN are much more likely to be stories about consenting adults- where maybe that isn't the case in Harry Potter (although again, I can't say for sure, and I'm hesitant to put words in her mouth).

I appreciated her essay, because it's something I've been struggling with since this whole strikethrough thing started. On one hand, part of me thinks there is, or should be, a line somewhere about what is acceptable and what isn't in fanfic. But how do you come to a decision about that? Who enforces it? How the hell could we even agree? I'm sure not comfortable telling someone that their chan story is essentially kiddie porn- how can I ask others to? How do you not cross the line into censorship- where the hell is that line, anyway?

Let me put it this way- if Law and Order does a serious episode about kiddie porn and the FCC decides it can't be aired- that's censorship. But if "General Hospital" does a storyline where a 14 year old girl is in a relationship with a 40 year old man- and it's portrayed as healthy and happy- should that be shown? It wouldn't even get to the FCC, because it would never be thought of- it's considered (by our mainstream society) to be completely unacceptable.

Should that kind of thing be considered acceptable in fandom? I think that was more the point of her essay than anything else- I don't think (although I could be wrong) she was talking about the kind of adult incestuous relationships that are seen in fandoms like SPN or Numb3rs.

Please feel free to disagree with me- and I'm sorry for hijacking your journal. I've been really, really struggling with this issue since the whole strikethrough thing happened.

[alicettlg.livejournal.com]

Discussions and stories written about it may cause actual, quantifiable distress in some people, but distress is not in and of itself harmful. It is uncomfortable, it is something most people can and will avoid at all costs.

(emphasis my own)

The bolded part is the only thing in your extremely well articulated response to drlense's comment.

Survivors of child abuse and rape (and other traumas) may have PTSD as a result and discussions and stories about abuse and/or rape may be triggers for them, resulting varying real harm and real problems for them, not merely distress.

This does not mean the stories or discussion shouldn't occur but it is why warnings are important, on stories and possibly on some discussions that may occur where a survivor isn't expecting to encounter it, give them a chance to bail before being hit by a trigger for their PTSD. Warnings are the flip side of yelling fire in a crowded theatre when there isn't a fire - this is more like not yelling fire when there is one.

Excellent comments otherwise, particularly the last line - I went looking for a quote about something else and found this which seems fitting:

"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes." -- Thomas Paine