Ficsnits and Peevettes, Take 2 - Labelling

[maygra]

::Waves::

Hi ya'll. Yep, back again for round two.
The Layman's Guide to Labelling

So, someone asked me, “Maygra, why for so you so compulsive with the disclaimers, girl?” (although they were more direct.)

There’s a couple of reasons why I, and probably other people, warn, disclaim and otherwise label fan fiction. And those reasons, for wanting or not wanting them vary between fen, and readers have different reasons for wanting/not wanting them than writers have for giving them.

As a writer I label for pretty much one reason. A long time ago (1996-98), in a galaxy far, far away, (known as Highlander fandom) I regularly got, well -- burned, flamed, taken to task, otherwise reviled and annoyed and had a bunch of truly aggravating things happen to me and my then psued. So I labeled. Copiously. I labeled for slash, for non-con, for rape, for bad language, for iffy theology, for OMC’s, OFC’s, dogs, cats and elephants.

And for the most part I still do. Old habits die hard, even though nowadays (you young whippersnappers) it’s probably not nearly as necessary. Slash is not uncommon and while some people still don’t like it, trust me, that for the most part (there’s always exceptions) the haters aren’t nearly as likely to try and figure out who you are in RL and hunt you down and turn your name into the sex crimes office of your local PD.

As a reader, I like labels and warnings because I know what I like to read. I mean, I read a lot of things, but I definitely have preferences for certain pairings, for angst over humor, for darker themes over curtain fic. I like stories that make me think and I like stories that maybe make me get a little teary eyed.

But I don’t like death fic except in an extremely narrow range and death fic that doesn’t fit that range can send me into a pretty severe tailspin.

So, let me make a statement here: as a reader, I really am not asking you, the writer, to take responsibility for my emotional state when I read. Label/don’t label, warn/don’t warn. Up to you. (although I really, really advocate for warnings on death fics.)

As a reader, I am more likely to read fic with labels and warnings than those without. If I see an unlabelled fic, I am likely to skim to the end to make sure I want to read it (which, if you are trying to preserve some emotional impact by revealing nothing? I’m pretty much going to hack your intent and get around it,) or ask someone I know if they've read it before I dive in.

However, as a reader, if you are going to label, I’d really like it if your labeling actually reflects what you are writing.

I’m not going to rehash the rape/non-con argument (although feel free). In my last post, it was made pretty clear that what I think of non-con doesn’t necessarily mesh up with other folkses, but I’m okay with that – the difference between rape and non-con is a slippery gray slope.

But I will reiterate my annoyance at people who label things “non-con” when they are really writing rape, or when they are writing something else like say….child sexual abuse.

Also, be really clear: I don’t care what you write. In some cases I might; there are things I wish people would stop writing about, like, forever, but I’m never likely to voice that list except in general terms. So, I don’t care what you write – no matter how ridiculous or how dark, mpreg to gang-rape, to tentacle fic, to the mauling of infants. I am not in any way, shape or form telling anyone to stop writing things I don't like. Really, I'm not. (Because if I had that kind of power we would be a totally Mary-Sue free zone.)

What I don’t want to do is read it. Really, I don’t. Or maybe I do, but I want to know about it first so I can be mentally/emotionally prepared.

Again, be clear, I’m addressing this to people who are already labeling their fic. What I’m asking for is truth in advertising, here.

And yes, I’m going to be specific to SPN here, because this fandom is fraught with the kind of basic misunderstandings that make me a little nuts -- I mean this is a fandom where the Slash standard is Incest. This is a fandom where Sexual assault by the dead and dying and non-human is pretty much canon (and if it’s not yet, it will be). Where people routinely get possessed, or shape shifters steal their faces and thoughts…so, you can see where there could be a lot of confusion.

But in some cases, it’s really straight forward.

I’m sure HP fandom broke a lot of barriers, but as far as I know, pretty much in the good old USA where Supernatural takes place, if an adult has sex with child or adolescent under 16 years of age, not only is it statutory rape, it’s also child abuse. If the adult happens to be that child’s father, mother, or brother, it’s child abuse as well as incest as well as rape. Are you seeing the pattern here?

Labeling something incest, doesn’t actually change the fact that it’s child abuse. Labeling it non-con doesn’t either. If it’s two brothers having sex when one is 14 and one is 10, it’s underage sex. Please, feel free to check the statutes state by state. It’s not a difficult Google search.

And guess what, Rape and non-con, don’t translate necessarily to being slash. If Dean or Sam is raped by some random stranger/character/demon, that doesn’t automatically make the story slash. It might be, but by most people‘s assumptions, slash as a genre is a little more weighty than just sex between two same sex characters, and rape does not necessarily tip the scales in the slash direction.

Again, let me restate, I don’t care what you are writing. I really don’t. You can write whatever you want, I’m cool with it. But if you are going to label it, if you are going to offer that much choice and assume your readers are of the discerning type to know what they like and dislike, then label appropriately to the best of your ability. Ask if you aren’t sure.

Your readers – this reader anyway – will thank you and the chances are that I’ll comment too.

You know, if you care about such things.

Comments

[morgandawn.livejournal.com]

after reading your list of the things that you label for, I realized what the real problem is - you forgot to label for clowns. Scary things, those clowns. And stumbling across one unawares....shudders.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

Clowns!! Yes! I should put them in my standard site disclaimers!

Really, anymore? Lablelling is all about wht I want to read and I'm pretty clear that people who read me tend to like the same things, so If I'm out there trolling for rape, non-con and No!Clowns! other people are too.

[stungunbilly.livejournal.com]

You may joke, but!
Some of us cringe like beaten puppies at the sight of a big red nose.
Have mercy and warn us, already.
(I won't even go into the SCARY PAINTED GRIN. ::shudder::)

[cereta.livejournal.com]

A reasonable post about labels...how astonishing.

God, that debate drives me more insane than just about anything else in fandom, and the degree to which you had to disclaim this is just evidence of how unreasonable people can be about it.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

yes, it's true. I did not miss the irony of being inclined to disclaim my rant about labelling.

[babyofthegroup.livejournal.com]

...there are D/S 14/10 slash stories?

Man, I'm glad I live a sheltered life. No, really. In HP I read mostly student/student stuff which could be considered "chan" (I fucking *hate* that word, though), and admittedly for me the adult/child line is a little blurrier than for some people (in high school? same age? bring it on!), but there are some places people go and I'm all "NO. Stop right there." 10-year-olds having sex would be one of those places.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

Sweetie, I'm waiting for the story to drop where Sam is like eight. I can feel it coming in my bones.

And yeah, I'm not much for the cutesy names (Although I may be more conversant than some on the etymology of "chan".) But I'm equally averse to "Wincest".

but I'm also clear that it's a mechnizsm that people uyse for wahtever reason to make what they write seem different than what it is. Not in all cases becasue at some point the alter-words become the vernacular. So, yeah, chan is another word for underage sex between two characters of similar age but both still minors. As long as I know that, I'm good with the whole avoidance mode.

But some people don't.

[witchofthedogs.livejournal.com]

I'm still pondering this... because I do want people to stop writing the father/son/rape stories because... well, not only are they non-con, but they suck. And really, I think people should stop writing SPN fic that sucks. Because it hurts my eyes and makes the baby Jesus cry.

Seriously, I would love for the gratuitous sex (including the abuse/rape/no-basis in any canon) fics to go away. I'm getting more than a little tired of them... I have no say in the matter, and if it could be done with some kind of, I don't know, class, I might read it, but what I see now is awful.

And I agree with your labelling system (although you go into much more detail than I do and you did open my eyes a little to what I should be doing).

I still think the crap should disappear... I know it's an unconstitutional fascist thing to say, but I can't help myself.

[brynwulf]

Ok, so we're selfish bitches, but so what! SPN sucky child abuse fiction has no place in the free world. And you're right....it's pretty hard to write a classy John/winchesterbrother story, IMO. I don't even have an idea what a classy one would look like.

Maygra is much nicer than us. I say, Off with Their Heads!

[ixchel55.livejournal.com]

I still think the crap should disappear...

If we can't make it go away, do you think if we asked very nicely people would be willing to put CRAP! warnings on their fic? It would make it ever so much nicer and less time consuming than going through all the partial fics I've begun in the SPN fandom only to aggravate my carpal tunel by reaching for the back button too quickly. *g*

[brynwulf]

You know, I wondered if I was the only one who was really really confused by what I could have sworn was Child Abuse, when i saw nary a warning at all. And as always, you said it so beautifully, I truly hope it does some good and beautiful words aren't for naught.

[witchofthedogs.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, the people writing this drivel aren't literate enough to understand what maygra set forth in her post. At least, that's what I can tell from their writing.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

I have no illusions aobut how much (or how little) impact my rants have. Mostly I'm preaching to the choir I think.

and yeah, the story of which we speak -- it baffled me. Becasue yes, the lables were appropriate. Incest and rape but..then...and then...

I don't think people get the difference sometimes between a readers tolerance for violent themes surrounding adults and violent themes surrounding children.

I mean I bailed pretty quickly and skimmed the rest to see if she'd breing it forward which -- okay, still child abuse, but...I give some props for flashbacks.

But then again, I'm having a really hard time seeing where people are getting the purported abuse of Dean from in canon (not that I don't think someone could sell it...but man...is he not woobie enough for them or what?)

[marinarusalka.livejournal.com]

Personally, I wish people would label for things like WeepingMartyr!Dean or UselessWhiner!Sam or EvilAbuser!John. But do they? No. They spring them on me unawares and leave me all traumatized. I feel much more charitable toward the people writing the father/son incest and the tentacle porn -- they at least label the stuff so that I can avoid it.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

I could dedicate several posts to waht I wish people woould stop writing.


But you know, this fandom needs more tentacle porn. Seriously. Maybe some wingfic.

okay. kidding about the wingfic, but the tentacle porn...I can't help it. It's that anime fan in me. There's nothing quite like a good solid rape/possession fic with the king of demons and his slimy appendages. Yes. I warn copiously for that. Well, I will.

[temaris.livejournal.com]

Ah, but they do, it's just the subtle, understated sort of labelling. You know, without paragraphs, and with the copious use of Evanescence lyrics and exclamation marks...

[oh-mumble.livejournal.com]

Oh, mislabelled fic. How many, many times you have traumatised me over the years.

Sometimes, I love this fandom. Others, it makes me run screaming. Because, really. In what kind of universe would John *ever* hurt his kids? He loves them. He'd lie and cheat and kill for them, and I am thinking, most of fandom is just not getting this.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

yeah, but that's the point. Seriously, I think a good writer could make a good argument for Abusive!John! I haven't actually seen it yet, but I don't disallow the possiblity.

Even though, yes, there are stories/themes I wish people would just drop kick out of their psyches, they aren't anymore likely to than I am to stop writing rape and viloence and sacrifice or torture -- and I'm really not asking them too. Waht I am asking is that if you are going to label, then know why and do so in ways that actually, you now, provide suffcient information for people to make informed choices.

[thisisbone.livejournal.com]

Since I mostly read you and scribblinlenore and a few others, I seem to have been sheltered for the most part from the John/Either Son, the kidsex, the abuse stories... You know, when I think of SPN, I think of what a rich backstory there is, and how many wonderful paths you could take for fic, but I hardly ever think about 14-year-old Dean having sex with 10-year-old Sam...

deannaz has a fic that postulates a sexual relationship between early teen Sam and late teen Dean, and somehow, she's made that work for me. I'm occasionally squicked by a phrase or descriptive term, but in general I'm okay with it because she sold it to me. Kinda like YOU sold me on the brother!slash in the first place with False Comforts!

I've crossed lines I used to consider pretty darn sacrosanct in the past few weeks -- RPS and incest weren't part of my typical reading fare until the SPN Freight Train blew into town.

I'm off topic...this fandom, more than any other I can think of, has the potential for the UGLY. I, as a reader, would just as soon know how ugly before I invest myself in a story. So I appreciate your warnings (and I appreciate how cautious you were about me reading False Comforts -- I felt loved.) :)

Just FYI

[1trackmind.livejournal.com]

Findlaw (http://www.findlaw.com) is a great site for researching the statutes (and sometimes case law) of various states. Unfortunately, it's often only as good as the individual state sites and some states are better than others. Most states have their statutes on-line but many states only have court cases going back a few years.

Re: Just FYI

[maygra.livejournal.com]

I lvoe findlaw. I do.

[aukestrel.livejournal.com]

It's no secret that I think death warnings are at least morally obligatory. When I first got into dS there was someone who wrote deathfic just often enough that you knew what you were getting into if you clicke don a story of hers, but she didn't warn because (IMHO) she was going for the cheap nasty emotional impact of "death" via shock instead of actual, you know, *writing*. Which frankly I have even less respect for than almost anything else. Um. But. I didn't mean to go off again. (I just... OW. It hurt. A lot.) There were actually a few people who kept their eyes out and warned other people about unlabelled death stories because they knew how other fans reacted to death stories.

Underage/kids... I think to some extent we're sort of biologically wired to react more strongly to kids in certain situations. That is a huge generalisation but I think it may explain why, generally, people have a rougher time with bad things happening to kids. (And I'm not arguing that there aren't people out there who DO horrible things to kids - this is just a generalisation.) And animals. Or that part could just be me. I tend to get sniffly when I see dead animals in the road. :-/

But anyway. If your story is good, warnings are not going to affect whether people enjoy it or not; and they might affect whether people read it or not. If I don't know the author and I don't have any other way of knowing, I *will* skip to the end to see if it's a death story becaues I am *not* going to invest that energy in reading a story just to get screwed over. If I read a death story, I want it to be *my* choice.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

Well, I think you pretty much know how I feel about unlabelled death fics. Right down to the fact that I really need to not be quite so trusting of other people's sensibilities.

And I can deal with child abuse as a theme -- I just like to know it going in. God knows I've written enough stories dealing with the subject in settings as far away as pre-Roman Crete, for heaven's sake. So it's not the subject matter per se, as much as ...I dunno. It's like television. I'm all for people taking responsibility for the television shows they watch or let their kids watch. Ratings and warnings help deal with that. And I'd rather have that than someone elsewhere telling me what I can and cannot watch, because somebody or somebody's kid might be traumatized for life.

There is a balance in there somewhere.

[ixchel55.livejournal.com]

Well, pretty much what everyone else has said - except clowns, I don't mind clowns, but if I ever include them in a fic I'll be sure and shout a warning.

I don't care what people write, but for pity sake, please give the reader an informed choice as to whether they want to read your story or not.

I'll buy into the fact that most people can't tell if they're writing mind griping prose or mind numbing drivel, but there's no reason people can't accurately list the bullet points of their fic.

[desertport]

Thank you for making the distinction between rape/non-con and slash. It's one I don't see acknowledged much in fandom, but have always felt needed to be. Another important distinction is that rapist/victim is not necessarly a pairing -- labeling for it is fine, but calling two people a couple or a pairing based on the fact that one raped/molested/whatever the other? It's appalling.

Btw, hi. I've admired your fic for a while now and recently friended you to keep up with it all. Hope I'm not barging in.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

Nope. Barging in is encouraged.

I don't find it so much appalling as definitely misleading and worthy of much eye-rolling. It's also a quick way to get on my "do not read this author, ever" list.

And granted, I'm not a fan of partner rape but I get the appeal -- and tht one falls into that kind of weird territory where it's both, but..that's pretty much what I mean. Becasue I will read a rape fic in a new york minute. Partner rape? not so much. In which case my desire to read rape overrides my desire to read slash.

and when authors make that distinction, I'm so much more likely to both read and comment.

[melina123.livejournal.com]

Never mind rape or death... I just want to be warned if you are going to hurt any fluffy or otherwise cute animals.

(I apparently made such a fuss that nobody warned me about "Shackleton," that now I get a ton of warnings every time a movie or TV show shows anything bad happening to a dog or cat. "OMG MELINA DON'T WATCH FROM 20:10-23:15 THERE'S A CAT AUTOPSY!")

[maygra.livejournal.com]

Well, there is a a reason you are called the Koala Bear of the Apocalypse, you know. (you and my roommate. She's walked out of movies where a dog died. Bunnies, cats. I think she was traumatized by Bambi and Old yeller)

Hwo do you feel about clowns? What about cymbal clapping monkeys?