Wait. What? That's not what I heard...

[maygra]

The No Stairway Anthology


To be upfront and honest, we're not quite ready for the reveal. Neither the comm nor the website are entirely ready, not all the process and procedures have been honed or tested, and our proposed staff have neither been allowed to review the project nor opted in on any level.

However, I seem to be doing a poor job of defining just what this project is and what it intends -- mostly because we've been using the procedure process to help refine our scope and better define our mission and goals -- but I did hear what people were saying and we did make note of their concerns. We can't guarantee this will satisfy everybody, but we do hope it at least gives people a place to start assessing what we plan on doing instead of what they think we are doing -- or even why.

People form opinions and take positions that are entirely valid to them -- and the information in the link below may change no one's mind, and it is as likely as not to generate more questions and possibly more concerns. Fair enough. But I'm sincerely hoping that at least some information -- as opposed to speculation -- might at least give the project a chance.

So, please go here: http://community.livejournal.com/nostairway/

at least this way, if you still think it's a bad idea, at least it will be the right bad idea.

*and for anyone keeping track, the "Anthology" part of the idea jumped in and wrestled us all to the ground around midnight Friday. *g*

Comments

[destina.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Well, you had downplayed the use of the word 'literary' to me, and now I see it's front and center in the description. But I have no idea what this means: "Please note that 'literary' in this instance refers to form and function and not to genre." So what, exactly, does 'literary' mean in this context? Form and function is such a nebulous definition; it's practically meaningless, if you don't outline some parameters of the type of form and function you actually mean. For instance, to some folks, 'literary' form means 'pretentious and artsy; pretty words without much of a point'. To me, the broader inference says some version of 'we only want people to submit if they are Very Serious about their writing'. So perhaps y'all could work on clarifying that.

Actually, I'm wondering why the inclusion of this term is important to what you're trying to do here at all.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

Because the process is geared more toward literary or hardcopy publishing than it is Just recommendations with caveats: i.e. there's a submission process, there's a screening process, there's an editorial review. What there isn't and won't be is a requirement for extensive rewrites on already published works. IF people want to go that route because they aren't accepted, we'll do our level best to assist them, but acceptance is based on a story as submitted, not on acceptance and implementation of edits.

And because the anthology volumes themselves will be themed. Some of them will be general and broad, others may focus on specific characters or types or stories by genre or theme.

If that single word is really a stop-block then I'll consider removing it, as for the other, I'd like people to be at least as serious about their writing presentation-wise, as I am about promoting it.

And given how I tend to post my own stories? There's a reason why I'm on the administrative staff and not on the editorial board, which is pretty much the same reason why I never did any of the heavy lifting when we published FWE. Ithink I have a fair grasp on what's good writing, but I have less of a skill at coaxing people (or myself) to make it better or even consistent.

[traveller.livejournal.com]

so, in sum...

if they call it 'good' fiction, people are insulted.

if they call it 'best' fiction, people are insulted.

if they call it 'literary' fiction, people are insulted.

any word that indicates a qualitative ideal, that's pretentious, it's elitism, it's snobbery, it's mean.

what WOULD make people happy? here's our zine, we just picked stuff at random 'cos we don't really care about what it's in it. sorry about all those typos and formatting errors and the fact that a sentinel story got in there by accident, but that's fair, right?

[destina.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure there's nothing you would pick that would make everyone happy. I'm pretty sure you know that, too. I'm raising the issue because I think the terminology is something you'll have to take on directly if the project is going to succeed. Using the term 'literary' as a way of saying 'grammar and spellcheck your story, please, and while you're at it, don't write Sam as a fifteen year old girl' doesn't quite seem to hit the mark. For me.

[traveller.livejournal.com]

if it was up to me -- it isn't -- literary is exactly the word to describe the ideal that should be strived for by anyone who's not writing just for fun. and i'm the first to defend the thousands who're writing just for fun, and i hate it when those people are denigrated for not living up to the standards of others. those people already know they don't want to go through the pressures of the process of being in a zine like this one.

i should bow out of this conversation now, my only place in this project is aesthetic anyway. css doesn't get mad if you sometimes call it html. :\

[destina.livejournal.com]

literary is exactly the word to describe the ideal that should be strived for by anyone who's not writing just for fun.

I don't get this, unless you're equating 'writes just for fun' with 'doesn't care about quality in their work'. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but I think it's entirely possible to care greatly about craft and still write just for fun. I do write professionally, and I'm pretty serious about my craft, but that doesn't negate the fact that when if I should happen to write wingfic, my worries about adverb elimination and magnificent, evocative turn of phrase are secondary to how hot Dean is with wings. That doesn't mean I don't care about the quality of the sentences describing his hotness, though.

Anyway. I think I should bow out now, too.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

if i may, very briefly?

i've participated in dozens of conversations about the quality of fanfic, and if i say but what about characterization, plot, pacing, these foundations of good writing, frequently someone will reply, oh, i am just writing for fun, i don't care about any of that.

if you care about both, that is awesome. more power to you. and maybe you'd consider letting us read something of yours.

there are those who do not. that too is awesome, and more power to them, but they probably won't be picked up by this little net we've devised. it isn't because they're worth any less, they're just rubies instead of emeralds, and we like green. :)

[phantomas.livejournal.com]

I personally have no qualms with the use of 'literary' (been through extensive discussions for years, about literary fanfiction in The Professionals, and that's how Pros Lit came to be, and thus named ;) - it can scare some away or intimidate others, but it shouldn't. Can't please everyone.

I'd rather have a 50/50 percentage of 'already published' vs. 'unpublished', but it's not a requirement for enjoying the whole process and/or working for it.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

It's currently SPN only, so yes, feel free to remove your pointer and I apologize for the confusion. WE kind of rushed to press before we were really ready. I'm sorry.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

I will look into that. I hadn't heard it before. Thank you! (I'm a genre reader in RL too.)

[stormcloude]

Here's a couple of logistical questions:

Our Acquisitions Manager is responsible for ... encouraging talented new authors to participate in the Anthology.

Makes it sound like it could be "invitation only" or could lead to accusations of cronyism etc. I'm sure you can see all the negatives to this statement without me pointing them out.

No Stairway is not a greatest hits collection, but an anthology of work that values both style and substance, and a chance for readers to discover those unrenowned b-sides

Are you going to turn down stories with more than a certain number of comments or that have already been rec'd all over. How are you going to determine if something is a b-side or a greatest hit?

Relatedly, you've mentioned elsewhere about not getting enough submissions. Do you push back the release schedule or lower the standards if that happens? Publish less than 10 stories per volume? Start accepting "greatest hits"?


Also I'm confused as well by the use of the word "literary," but I am hoping to scope that out from reading other's discussions on it.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

1.We hope to encourage new authors, as well as established ones. Anyone can submit their work. Old, new, published, unpublished. Unless a work is accepted (or really, widely known), no one but the administrator is going to know submitted what. So a new author (or old) may be Asked to submit, but asking doesn't guarantee acceptance.

2. We don't turn anything down just because of comments or because it's been posted or recced. We may struggle with finding reviewer who can be completely objective on a well known work, but we'll find a away by either expanding the review panel size or tap people who wouldn't normally read that genre if they are willing. The b-side and greatest hits are metaphors -- we're looking for stories that aren't as well known and those that are -- but their actual status or reception as they exist within the fandom now won't impact their assessment. Or at least not in so far as we can mitigate it.

3. We're looking at a fairly healthy submission schedule, probably over a couple of weeks. We don't intend on publishing a "thin" anthology, or a padded one. If that happens we'll either push back publication date and re-ask accepted authors if they are still interested.

4. Literary in this sense describes the process as much as any kind of specific work. The whole process is very much like a publication process for a lit anthology, in that it's a collection of solid if diverse work. Someone else suggested that what we're really talking about is similar to genre works that are hitting the literary mainstream -- books that contain fantastical or science fiction or romance elements, that used to be only found in genre novels.

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

I'm a little confused by the name and stated purpose of the comm -- does this mean fandom classics are not eligible? When I asked about popular, well-known stories by popular, well-known authors in your first post on the subject, your response was that they were popular and well-known for a reason, which I took to mean they were welcome.

Or put another way, when someone submits the fannish version of Stairway to Heaven, will you say, "Sorry, the whole point of this anthology is to collect stories that are not already widely known and beloved?"

[maygra.livejournal.com]

No, it doesn't. It means they don't get any more weight than anything else, and it also means they can't be disqualified because they are either well-known or popular (although it does mean we have to jump through some hoops to make sure the review is objective.)

No Stairway is not a greatest hits collection, but an anthology of work that values both style and substance, and a chance for readers to discover those unrenowned b-sides that might become dear favorites, or replay an old favorite that they lost four moves and five cars ago.

We are in the process of polishing the editorial guidlines, but unlike this over view that I rushed to put out, we plan on having the folks who have actually applied for the editorial and screening positions to see it first. Once that's done, we'll post those documents for people to see as well.

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

I guess I question the point of naming of a community "nostairway" when the stairway in quesstion is, in fact, perfectly welcome, and will be played as often as people care to submit it.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

And will be played as often as people care to submit it.

The irony did not escape us.

There are reasons it keeps showing up on the playlists...just as there will be here.

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure "irony" is how people would describe a radio station that called itself "no stairway to heaven," explained that it existed to put together great songs people have missed because they didn't get constant airtime, and then repeatedly played songs that get constant airtime everywhere because there's a reason those songs get played everywhere.

I actually think a comm to promote unknown or lesser-know fic would be a wonderful thing (if difficult, in practice, since defining what constitutes unknown is not an easy task), and the comm's name and description make it sound like it that's what this is. And that's very much not what it is, if well-known and popular fic is also solicited.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

I've gotta say, I don't really have any idea how to make this work for everybody. If we eliminate well-known and popular authors just because they are well known and popular, as opposed to basing that decision on the merit of their work, we'll be accused of being exclusionary and prejudiced against those authors (as opposed to being prejudiced against their work and that's not any better.) And then we've got the entire "oh no, judging!" by having to set some arbitrary limit or try to define what popular and well known -- I mean exactly how do I set that standard? Anyone with over 500 people on their flist, more than 20 stories, with a combined comment count that exceeds 1000?

And say we stick to lesser known authors (with yet another set of criteria to define lesser known), given the comments already being leveled, who is going to read them? Or the anthology when people are already stating how they intend to avoid it at all costs?

So, what the actual goal is, what the best outcome could be, is to have a mix of old and popular or old and unknown and new and popular and new and unknown and hopefully a few who are just plain new,(or older fen with unpublished new works) and see if offering a broad range of stories and a broad range of authors doesn't actually offer the fandom something that actually does bring some benefit and joy, because it's familiar and they like to see their favorite authors do good, and because they might find a new favorite, and because we can promote new works as well as old and everyone wins.

It is open to anyone, any type of story, no matter how new or old, or the author's current standing or reputation in fandom.

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

And then we've got the entire "oh no, judging!" by having to set some arbitrary limit or try to define what popular and well known -- I mean exactly how do I set that standard? Anyone with over 500 people on their flist, more than 20 stories, with a combined comment count that exceeds 1000?

It would be extremely difficult, maybe impossible (and certainly impossible to do so in a way that didn't cause huge amounts of wank). My problem is not that you're not doing that; it's that the name of the community and the userinfo make it sound like you are in fact doing it. It's presenting the entire venture as something very different than it actually is.

I"m not going get into the rest of your comment, because, really, I'm already gone on at length about my problems with the comm -- you know how I feel, I know how you feel, there's almost no common ground on the issue, and there's no reason to rehash ad nauseam. I brought up this particular issue because the comm's name and description sounded very different past comments you'd made, and I wasn't clear if the comm's purpose had changed, or if it was just being marketed in a way that didn't reflect the comm's actual intent. When you clarified that it was the latter, it just became one more issue for me.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

I get that. But what I can't quite get my head around, or apparently my reassurance-fu, is that for every issue I address, another comes up. Something that highlights "good" (however subjective) is an issue, literary is an issue, the name of he anthology is an issue, trying to promote lesser known authors is an issue as is trying to promote better known ones. The fact that people have issues with the people doing the layout and design and who are trying to generate interest is an issue.

I'm sincerely grateful that most folks seem to think that me being involved is if not a good thing, at least it's not a bad thing. And for those people who are saying "Hey, let them do it, even if you don't want to play", because at least they aren't making us out to be fandom wreckers.

I've got some awfully talented people waiting in the wings who really want an opportunity to work with writers new and old.

I'm sorry that the name and userinfo seems to misrepresent what we're doing. Obviously it didn't hit me the same way when we put the comm together -- we thought it was a pretty interesting and inclusive statement about it without the (issue) of being too pretentious.

I know you think this whole thing is a bad idea and while I can respect your concerns, you're right that we really are seeing this through entirely different lenses. I see something that could bridge the gap between what's well known and what's going by without note, as comes up every time we have any discussion at all about writers and readers and audiences and who gets the attention and who doesn't. I mean that is, all this aside, why you and I and Killa and everyone else makes recs and why we are really thrilled when we find someone new whose work we really love.

This isn't a rec list, but it's not really a zine either. I really do see it as a way to get a bunch of good things in one place. I'm sorry you don't see it the same way.

[gekizetsu.livejournal.com]

HEY

HEY YOU

FANDOM IS SEIRIUS BIDNESS!

Is this the same Maygra who was getting busted quite awhile ago for being a BNF and then not encouraging the emerging and deserving writers out there? Can't you stay out of trouble? Do I need to move there, or something?

I'm glad I'm too simple to understand half of this.

[maygra.livejournal.com]

Yes, that would be me.

PLEASE, PLEASE MOVE HERE. And Bring Red. And the cats. And Mom

[maygra.livejournal.com]

And I probably do need to add, that my aspirations and my expectations for this project are pretty far apart at this point.